Pubdate: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 Source: The DrugSense Chat Room Website: http://www.drugsense.org/chat/ Note: This, and the series of forums, is being archived at MAP as an exception to our web only source posting policies. Related: For more info, visit www.chrisconrad.com, www.potpride.com, www.fcda.org, www.hr95.org, www.thehia.org and www.votehemp.com Also: Chris Conrad will entertain questions online at the NY Times Forum from 5 to 6 PM Pacific Standard Time, 8 to 9 PM Eastern, on Wednesday, 28 Nov 2001 http://forums.nytimes.com/comment/index-national.html TRANSCRIPT: CHRIS CONRAD'S VISIT TO THE DRUGSENSE CHAT ROOM Chris Conrad: Greetings to all. Thanks for being here. Dean Becker: So much to ask, but what are we to do about the DEA raid? Chris Conrad: As per the DEA issue, there are three fronts active right now, the anti-hemp move, the anti-states rights on medical marijuana, and the ongoing anti-marijuana user crusade. allan: Chris- You have done Art Bell in the past, is he still available to our crew of reform "experts"? Chris Conrad: I'll have to get back to him and find out. He was very thorough on the one show I participated in. Chris Conrad: I'm not sure about the gift, but as per the hemp issue we need people to lobby DEA and officials by Dec 10 via votehemp.com [Note: See Alert: Challenge The DEA 4 Dec 2001 at http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v01/n000/a225.html ] Chris Conrad: The medical marijuana patients' and states' rights issue is trying to resolve what we should do before the next raid on a club and again what to do afterwards. allan: Chris- the moves by the DEA and other fed agencies is being seen by many (us) as un-American, is this a pursuable avenue for debate/action? Chris Conrad: On the un-American issue of the DEA attack on CBCs, that is potentially very strong. This is not a good time to attack Bush, whose attention is elsewhere, but we should pin that onto Ashcroft. Chris Conrad: Problem with Ashcroft is that the Senate hearings were very big on "will you enforce federal law despite your personal beliefs" and he's using that as a fallback. Diane Fornbacher: We here at tri-state DPF [ www.dpfpa.org ] were thinking about having a demo outside of Philly's DEA office with hemp foods like the SSDP [ www.ssdp.org ] kids did with the Bronner products. Chris Conrad: I think a bust for someone eating hemp foods would expose the ludicrous nature of the regulation. Richard Lake: The columnists seem to be having a field day with Ashcroft. He is not looking good in the press.... Diane Fornbacher: It is truly a shame that they attacked medicinal users in the first place but especially now, what horrible opportunism and bad taste! Chris Conrad: Yeah, and with Ashcroft there will be lots of opportunities to build coalitions with other movements, like right to life and right to die. Trippin981819254: Chris...of all the obstacles keeping marijuana reform from losing out against prohibition... what's the biggest obstacle? Chris Conrad: Biggest obstacle is the pork barrel of the drug war, the fact that it's a sacred cow. Ashcroft is supposed to be Christian, yet he seems to be using the DW as its own religion. We should attack him with the Bible (Matthew 6, e.g..) Chris Conrad: I think we should have rallies with "Ashcroft = antichrist" and specific Bible citings. Chris Conrad: For example, 1:Timothy has a great quote, as does Genesis, as does the New Testament. Diane Fornbacher: Coalition is the best way to build a strong fiber to any movement.... strange bedfellows make for powerful change Chris Conrad: When one tries to unite our movement one wins resentment as well as support. Chris Conrad: We judge people by their actions, not the opinions of others, Diane Chris Conrad: I hope it is the power of truth and ideas whose time have come. Chris Conrad: Birdseed still seems to be exempt under DEA's proposed regs, so it has to be food. Ben Masel: Back to the days of cleaning birdseed for human consumption. Chris Conrad: Now, that would be an interesting raid. Also remember your death penalty salad, Ben? Ben Masel: 60,000 sprouts. Chris Conrad: That kind of absurd rigidity will ultimately help us. Chris Conrad: This is an opportunity to open new fronts , like an eat-in at the DEA: media-genic stuff. Chris Conrad: Ben, you're a pro at that kind of brain storming, and Ashcroft is very vulnerable. Chris Conrad: I think that if we can tie the failures of the DW to Ashcroft instead of Bush, Chris Conrad: we have the potential of a "Nixon goes to china" by the president himself. Chris Conrad: The big companies have the most to lose, so they are difficult to activate. Chris Conrad: We should have small companies, individuals with no links to pot underground, to do that civil disobedience., Chris Conrad: A small company also has the David vs Goliath image in the media, which is good. Neil: It seems to me we should make a 'fall-guy' out of the policy itself, rather than targeting a person. There's always another Ashcroft sitting in the wings Chris Conrad: Sure, there are always others in the wings, but we need to connect the issue to the flawed AG. mrfreedom: If a coalition would be helpful and the best target would be food stuffs from hemp, what about enticing the supplement market giants? mrfreedom: I'm quite serious, the first persons to use supplements are always bodybuilders, athletes and the like. Certainly, hemp would be considered a boon considering its high digestible protein and its higher than flax seed oil in alpalipoic fatty acids. Chris Conrad: MrFreedom has it right that having a celebrity behind the cause is invaluable. Chris Conrad: Also, people like Rep Thielen of Hawaii, who is using hempseed oil to help heal her melanoma. Trippin981819254: Chris...do you have a plan in mind that would crumble DEA policy and Ashcroft at the same time.. like niel was saying? Chris Conrad: I have an idea, but the question is one of resources and courage. Chris Conrad: Basically, we could have a Bible belt attack on him as being an antichrist, and there is Biblical prophecy to back it up. Chris Conrad: If we weaken or destroy his fundamentalist support, he is isolated and we paint him as a lunatic. Chris Conrad: Remember that Ashcroft lost office to a dead man. That tells us a lot. Al Mites: well there's always Woody Harrelson for a celebrity to tie a face with Diane Fornbacher: Woody is a nice guy but are there more celebs who would be willing to step forward? Diane Fornbacher: Preferably ones who didn't star in natural born killers? I mean I like that movie myself but it tends to scare off the mainstream folks who don't dig the gore. Chris Conrad: Woody is great, but he's been typecast on this issue. Schwartzeneger or somebody would be better. Ben Masel: Black Tie Civil Disobedience: Gourmet Hemp Dinner on Capitol Hill. Can we still get to Stuart Mott? Chris Conrad: Black tie civil disobedience would be even more powerful if it was done by Republicans or their funders. Chris Conrad: The problem at the moment is that it is very easy for them to paint dissent as being unpatriotic. Chris Conrad: Police officers protesting the waste of their resources would be good, too. Chris Conrad: If the economy tanks, then we have a very powerful basis to pull the plug on DW enforcement. Chris Conrad: Or at least prioritization; like why go after patients and food companies? And why go after potheads? Al Mites: Its not far from, there's been a recession coming all year Sept 11th simply threw on the gasoline Chris Conrad: There is still the equal right argument, too Chris Conrad: Yeah, Sept 11 changed everything, yet everything stayed the same. Trippin981819254: Chris, if the economy tanks would we get more support from industry or more resistance? Chris Conrad: If the economy tanks, then we have a very powerful basis to pull the plug on DW enforcement. Chris Conrad: If the Afghani action is over soon, the exuberance may cause a stock market rebound, so we have to be ready for that. Chris Conrad: The other thing about the timing of the raid is that it was designed to take advantage of Sept 11, and people don't like that. Chris Conrad: While the media was looking at war, terrorism and anthrax, the DEA was exploiting the cover to attack the sick and dying. Chris Conrad: What did Jesus say "Blessed are they who comfort the sick and visit the prisoners"? Ashcroft is antichrist in attitude. Ben Masel: Letters on Hemp Foods should go not just to DEA, bit to Tommy Thompson. FDA is under HHS, and Tommy's been pro-hemp since I ran against him in 1990. Chris Conrad: Key point, Ben: Finding and supporting allies is even more important than targeting enemies of freedom. Neil: Is there any point in Canadians (me being one) sending letters to the DEA? Chris Conrad: Canadians should cite NAFTA. Chris Conrad: This administration has trashed every other treaty, but not NAFTA. Use it. Chris Conrad: It's also curious the anti-science position of this administration. Like ignoring NAS on medical marijuana. Chris Conrad: The argument on NAFTA is the non-drug point: they set a baseline for rat feces in food, they should have a realistic baseline for THC as well. Chris Conrad: Zero tolerance is not a baseline, it's a moralistic dictate and unreasonable restriction. Al Mites: another I've been thinking of is the recent decision to decriminalize Marijuana in Great Britain Chris Conrad: Too bad the US is not very susceptible to world opinion. mrfreedom: no the US is very susceptible to ECONOMIC opinions Chris Conrad: The US govt just periodically whips them into line with a war or two, but then acts as a renegade state. Chris Conrad: Yeah, like the freedom to farm act, eh Ben? Chris Conrad: Also any Euro state is said to be "different than America", like Netherlands policy for example. Neil: true, but the close physical and political ties to Canada make it's stance harder to ignore than, say, Britain. Chris Conrad: Canada -- heck, most US citizens think it's the second largest state! Chris Conrad: We need to resurrect Tom and Rollie [ see http//www.mapinc.org/find?200 (Rainbow Campground Shooting) back into the national spotlight somehow. Chris Conrad: It should be a victim's rights issue, but who wants to be a victim? Dean Becker: Have the autopsies been released, is there not a major concern still there? Chris Conrad: I've not seen anything official, but there do seem to be inconsistencies in the two that have been done. Chris Conrad: So, we have the victims and we know who the bullies are. That is what we need to communicate to the media. Frank: Everybody is victimized by the WoD Chris Conrad: Class action is a tough one. I wish we had a few civil attorneys to work with. Chris Conrad: I think there are anti-discrimination and anti-defamation actions that would be important civil law, as well. mrfreedom: In all of the plans I have seen to combat the war on hemp the economic plan has never been serioulsy considered; add the positive health benefits with the recognized benefits of medical marijuana and I think this would produce a significant 2 pronged economic attack Chris Conrad: Back to MrFreedom, there has been a lot of energy expended on fighting for the hemp economic front. Chris Conrad: We've moved a long way with the economic argument, and McCaffrey predicted hemp could never be viable. Chris Conrad: That's why they had to go after hempseed: It is economically profitable even as an import. Fiber needs domestic supply, so they can hold the line on it by blocking cultivation. Diane Fornbacher: It'd be great to feed McCaffrey a hemp burger Chris Conrad: Back in the 60s they used to talk about slipping politicians acid, now we're talking about slipping them a hempburger. Ben Masel: Don't slip them anything. Invite to a formal dinner. Al Mites: slipping them acid would simply create for cannon fodder to attack those within any legalization movement Chris Conrad: Hey, I don't think those guys could handle acid and am against it, it was a humorous reference. Ben Masel: Don't need pro-bono for civil rights litigation. Govt pays fees. Chris Conrad: Well, Ben, how do we get the attorneys? I know that patients in Cal should qualify as a class with legal status. Chris Conrad: Anyway, I think that creating alliances and media sympathy are key now mrfreedom: yes let maintain our focus; legalize hemp and hemp foodstuffs, legalize marijuana for medicinal use, encourage the economic impact this would have Chris Conrad: Lawsuits would be helpful, but Reichquest is still the chief tribunal of the land. Al Mites: contacting some of the NORML lawyers might be worth a beginning for a class action suit Chris Conrad: The real question is how do we get our elected officials to grow a spine? Diane Fornbacher: I think the most important thing to do here before any action is taken is to remember to forgive the ignorant. Chris Conrad: Good point, Diane, but it's easier to forgive the person who hurt you than the psycho who is hurting you. Chris Conrad: If the DEA slams the clubs, more and more patients will be willing to do so. JayB: our electeds need to be able to see the scene that we see. Chris Conrad: I agree, Jay. And we need to communicate how important and urgent the situation is. mrfreedom: Question? since the gov gives out marijuana cigs could they be held financially responsible for the deaths of those that don't get this medicine? Chris Conrad: Question: How come they can lie about marijuana but we can't tell the truth about hemp? Diane Fornbacher: I understand Chris and surely I have a healthy amount of anger toward those actions but it is hard to take action that'll make a difference if blinded by rage, that's all. Chris Conrad: I think it is always better to come from a place of calm deliberation than from pain and anger, Diane. Al Mites: Difficult to do Neil, as most doctors have been told if they prescribe Marijuana officially or otherwise they will have their license revoked Chris Conrad: Interesting, Al. Seems they need to be educated on the first amendment as well as about MMJ. Chris Conrad: So what's the deal with Pacifica? Are they saved? Are they an ally again? JayB: the solution must be political. The truth about the CSA and how it targets with political whimsy. Chris Conrad: It also has to be political to have lasting effect. And that is where we are weakest because of the stigmatization we bear. TigressTeaser: Why don't you make jokes of their lies and keep telling the jokes Chris Conrad: Tigress, wit and mockery are indeed powerful tools. I use them all the time. Chris Conrad: The problem is getting our story out there; we know how to tell it. JayB: The tyranny of the CSA. The targeting of old nonconformist hipsters with this meatax is the truth. Chris Conrad: CSA reminds me of the Confederate States of America, there has to be a way to spin that. JayB: the CSA will fall again. (apologies to my southern brothers) Chris Conrad: There are probably a lot of tools that have been handed to us in the recent flush of laws, but finding them will be tough. Chris Conrad: I still think that we should be able to use the RICO laws against CIA and DEA, but their immunity blocks it. Chris Conrad: That is a point of vulnerability for them: They break the law yet enforce others to obey it. Like the Taliban. Chris Conrad: Money, money, money, money. I like to use adversity, but that is a tough one. Al Mites: yet once again the problem is how to get the story out, there is more than enough to tell Chris Conrad: It seems there is always the element of using the "untold story" approach to get publicity. It worked for hemp in the early 90s. Chris Conrad: How deep do you think the penetration of hemp knowledge and name recognition go? 40% of total population? Chris Conrad: See, the Bible predicted that liars and hypocrites would enforce abstinence. That's why it's such a powerful tool vs Ashcroft. kaptinemo: Excuse me, but the problem seems to me to be the fact that the Feds have a very wide comfort zone. When they go after the clinics, they generally don't have to wade through a phalanx of patients in wheelchairs calling them Nazis...with the news cameras rolling Chris Conrad: Our problem is that most of the media remembers something about hemp, so they think it's old news, which is an oxymoron. Frank: the hempcar generated a lot of good coverage. Neil: TV images is what we need. The power of the visual is undeniable. Not that I would wish this to happen, but we need something like video of armed DEA officers beating up sick people to rip off their pot. Chris Conrad: A new angle is a new story to them. Al Mites: to my knowledge there's a planned March on DC in April, might get some attention to tell the untold story, however I don't know its current state Diane Fornbacher: How about a J4J across the USA? I know it would be hard so patients can go across their state and sort of "pass the torch" to the next state's patients.... an idea Neil: How about a torch relay - a torch that burns hemp oil, or course. Chris Conrad: I'd even like to see a fundraising walkathon. netizen_james: You get that good 'lady liberty' imagery with a torch! :-) Ben Masel: take a lot more hemp oil than the car. Chris Conrad: Maybe we should mix some alcohol in with the hemp oil to extend it. Chris Conrad: Also mixing hemp with alcohol has a certain symbolic resonance. Al Mites: perhaps a patient only fundraiser, use only those who would be helped by marijuana medically able to participate with those of us who are healthy organizing Chris Conrad: Resonance also reminds me of resin, which has a role here, too. Chris Conrad: There is the question of the ability to organize it, the ability to draw enough participants and the ability to manage news media. Richard Lake: Yes, a J4J wheelchair trek across the country has been discussed a number of times. But having the same patients go all the way is difficult, whereas perhaps the idea of a relay could work. It costs, though, so major funders must come on board. Need professionals helping with publicity or the trek is just a waste of time (I recall one on the east coast that got about zip press, whereas the ones in WI and TX got a lot.) Costs about $1000 to $2000 a day to do a trek. Chris Conrad: What we seek to achieve has to be determined before the details can be settled. Is this just a media event or how is it political? Diane Fornbacher: We should start on the east coast and go west or vice versa?? Chris Conrad: One problem that occurs to me is maintaining a medical supply for patients. Hempseed oil would not have that demand. Diane Fornbacher: we should also visit media offices as well -- so they can't claim they didn't know about us Chris Conrad: Diane, it's probably a matter of simultaneous media focus: One march would be covered differently by the local farm journal than by the local ADA newsletter, for example. Both, but individual. Dean Becker: Chris, elected, ministers, any local celebrities, esp if MMJ patients Chris Conrad: Dean, the ministry idea is fantastic. Remember, not all personal use is secular. Chris Conrad: Also, Jesus said all the right things. It's his followers who do the wrong thing that concern me. Chris Conrad: I think that the issues feed off each other, and that separation is often treated as disingenuous denial. Dean Becker: just my opinion, but religion is the only way to win this war, show the riches of the Pharmacies, the lies of the Heretics Chris Conrad: Also, Dean, if you read the story of the Harlot of Babylon in Revelation 18-21, that gets spooky. Chris Conrad: How do we get Christians to challenge the lies that are spread from the pulpit? Richard Lake: Total Distance: 2826.8 miles - SF to DC by freeways. Wheelchairs take country roads. 3000 miles minimum. 50 miles per day max. distance for patients. 60 days best travel time. Cost $60 to $120 thousand. Chris Conrad: Ouch! We could get a state initiative passed in Alaska for that money. Dean Becker: I talk to Christians about the drug war all the time, they are ready to listen, to change, they see the horror of what we are now doing. Chris Conrad: But the people who want to give money to a walk may not want to fund an initiative. It's a different sector. Chris Conrad: I sent out a challenge to Christian talk radio shows, and none of them took me up on it. Maybe we sould try again. Al Mites: yes, but one step at a time it is easier to begin education the masses about medical use which has already been shown to many and work from there than it is to go straight legalization, though if we can achieve them at the same time all the better Chris Conrad: I'd go with people who are experienced with that type of organizing, in other words Journey for Justice. Chris Conrad: For it to work in California would require new legislation (impossible) or a new initiative (expensive. Chris Conrad: The reason Oregon could challenge Ashcroft but not California is that CA did not legalize distribution, only possession/cultivation. Chris Conrad: There is some interest in doing a Prop 215 extension initiative, but we're a million dollars or so short.... Trippin981819254: Chris, why wasn't distribution included in CA? Chris Conrad: Dennis Peron thought that it was covered indirectly, but the courts and cops disagreed with him. Chris Conrad: Also people did not think it would pass with distribution, but I disagree and recent non-CA polls seem to support that opinion. Chris Conrad: In a sense, the more the narcs try to keep Prop 215 from working, the more open voters are to expanding it to fix the problems. Chris Conrad: There weren't problems until the narcs tried to distort the law and the courts went along with it. netizen_james: Not ALL local law enforcement refused to participate in questionable raids, as the Kubby's would certainlyt testify. Chris Conrad: I suspect that Placer county narcs would still join in today, but maybe not. Richard Lake: NORML foundation was the major funder of past patient wheelchair treks across OH, WI, FL and a good share in TX (though TX had more help than others from other funders). The issue is clearly to find a broad base of funding support. I really had to spend a lot of time on funding issues for the OH and WI treks, lots of msgs and calls. Chris Conrad: Good points, Richard. That's why I usually fund my own activities and keep the budget to what I can personally afford. allan: Chris- I really think approaching Art Bell again is a smart move... Chris Conrad: I'm going to approach him about my new Nostradamus and the Attack on NY book, so maybe I can do a double header. Chris Conrad: Too bad Oprah is only interested in "positive" stories. We thought she would like to tell stories from Shattered Lives. Chris Conrad: Maybe we could get her to put Amy Pofahl on, since her release gives a positive spin to a drug war story. netizen_james: How about a 'positive' Oprah story on the woman that Clinton pardoned that was on 'the wall'? Dean Becker: Chris, would not Oprah then like a positive story on the effects of MMJ for a patient or two? Chris Conrad: Perhaps, Dean. I don't have her ear; I just know that her people told us Shattered Lives was not Positive enough. Chris Conrad: This really points out to me that what we could use is a public relations firm for the movement. Chris Conrad: PRDI [ http://www.prdi.org/ ] is doing its bit, and ReconsiDer [ http://www.reconsider.org/ ] has its speakers bureau booklet - -- both are terrific. Kkraig: Oprah did a do you want to legalize poll and then fixed the results. Chris Conrad: What do you mean she fixed the results? Kkraig: 800 votes in 2 minutes. Chris Conrad: Is Bell's audience as big as before? Is he an independent? Chris Conrad: Seems like we should have our own media network, but we'd need another Ted Turner for that. Chris Conrad: Our problem is that most people who want us to speak also have no money and are not very good at publicity. We did have a great presentation at UC Berkeley, thanks to SSDP. Chris Conrad: Good turnout, too. Chris Conrad: So, all this having been said, is there something concrete to take home with us, or just great brainstorming? Dean Becker: Is it possible to buy cheap cable time, for select shows with say Chris, Judge Gray and others, like a drug talk show? Chris Conrad: The idea of cable is nice because all we need is one person per community to sponsor it, and we can cheaply produce a series of shows. Chris Conrad: Does cable get enough viewership to carry the day? Dean Becker: If we do a show with enough bravado, music, comedy and pizzazz we can get viewers Frank: Cable usually offers a community access channel. Chris Conrad: There is merit to working together, but it's also important to seize the moment as individuals. I know you all do this, anyway. Dean Becker: Yes Chris, but I think we must move soon, they are closing more doors every day Chris Conrad: I think that we have interesting enough info and speakers, it's really a matter of access. Richard Lake: Speaking, demos, treks, etc. require a real effort to insure max publicity. Patients on treks need to be briefed and practiced on handling interviews, etc. NORML foundation hired a PR firm for the WI trek which helped. OTOH some non-patients pushed their way in and caused problems for that trek, which left a bad taste for treks for a good while. Chris Conrad: Yes, Richard, it's difficult for the media to distinguish between desperation and just plain whacko activity. Chris Conrad: Which reminds me, all these Republicans who hated Waco, shouldn't they be upset about Tom and Rollie? Al Mites: of course, but given that its easily shoved under the rug right now they dont need to Chris Conrad: The bottom line is that we have the arguments and we need to select the recipients who are both influential and influenceable (sp?). Chris Conrad: Woody has a hemp suit, he helped fund Hempstead company, and he's been pretty selfless in supporting the cause. Chris Conrad: Some people feel like he should do more, but I say what other celebrity has done nearly as much? Lynn: why not do politically incorrect.....surely someone could do it Jo-D: Bill Maher finally mentioned WoD for the first time since 911 a couple nites ago! Frank: That was great Jo-D. I thought he had turned into a red-haired, non-hearing impaired Limbaugh! Chris Conrad: The weird thing about Maher is that his Right Wing Republican guest said that he supports medical marijuana, and they dropped it instead of pursuing the statement. Why? Chris Conrad: Someone has speculated Maher is concerned about being censored again since they did it once. Chris Conrad: Maher did refer to Todd a few times in passing. Unfortunately, Todd shot himself in the foot or he would be the poster boy. Chris Conrad: It's interesting that Todd's alleged "nemesis" (not the right word), Scott Imler had his club raided by the feds. netizen_james: strong words Chris, how did Todd 'shoot himself in the foot' Chris Conrad: Todd made a run from the police, which led to the revocation of his parole. That's not as easy to rally behind as a patient being busted. Also the 4000 plants didn't help. 40 would have been easier to explain, although I understand the breeding aspects. Diane Fornbacher: Chris, do you talk with Woody often? Chris Conrad: I got a testimonial from Woody for the next edition of "Hemp: Lifeline to the Future", but I'm not really into the celebrity chase. Diane Fornbacher: Nor am I Chris, don't get the wrong impression, I am brainstorming here, not celeb chasing, Chris Conrad: Diane, we need somebody who _is_ into the celebrity chase for the cause, not just for their own ego. Wish it could be one of us. Richard Lake: Chris, you are doing just super responding to the crowd here. You have been at it over an hour and a half. You are welcome to stay as long as you want, but be warned that this crowd can keep going for two or three hours yet if you stay. Feel free to bow out when you need to. We will be looking forward to your NYT forum chat on the 28th. A slower chat, but you can do much larger blocks of test at one time. Chris Conrad: Thanks, Richard. Actually I should be going soon; my typo rate is climbing, and I still have to read through another court case tonight. This expert witness thing is pretty heavy. Chris Conrad: I see us as patriots rather than celebrities, and most of us are "flying under the radar" by organizing around the issue without crossing the line into civil disobedience. Dean Becker: I have tried to get "celebrities" to visit us here and at NY Times, they are hard to reach, distracted and probably advised against the visits Chris Conrad: Yeah, Dean. That's the burn. Our issue is sexy ... maybe too sexy for most media folks to handle. Chris Conrad: Thanks everybody, for a delightful orientation into the chats. We'll talk soon, eh Dean? Chris Conrad: I'll keep thinking free. Peace, freedom and justice. Chris Conrad: Good night. - --- MAP posted-by: Richard Lake