Pubdate: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 Source: The DrugSense Chat Room Website http://www.drugsense.org/chat/ Note: This, and the series of forums, is being archived at MAP as an exception to our web only source posting policies. Note: Mr. Sterling is the President of The Criminal Justice Policy Foundation http://www.cjpf.org/ Over 150 news items about or by our guest are at http://www.mapinc.org/people/Eric+Sterling including the transcript of his visit to the NYT Drug Policy Forum. Cited: Marijuana Policy Project, http://www.mpp.org/ Chat: with Scott Immler when he visits the DrugSense Chat Room http://www.drugsense.org/chat Sat. Nov. 10, 2001 8 p.m. Eastern, 5 p.m. Pacific -- and Lynn Paltrow of the Women's Law Project Sun. Nov 11, 2001 9:30 p.m. Eastern, 6:30 p.m. Pacific. TRANSCRIPT: ERIC STERLING'S VISIT TO THE DRUGSENSE CHAT ROOM Eric Sterling Good evening friends. Eric Sterling Quick quiz who or what got 56% of the vote in November 1996? Eric Sterling a Asa Hutchinson, new GOP congressman from the 3rd district of Arkansas -- new head of DEA Eric Sterling no you are both right -- that is also the percentage that prop 215 carried! I think it is telling that he thinks he can disregard prop. 215 with that kind of percentage. Eric Sterling Mr. Hutchinson went to Bob Jones University and then to law school. He is not a doctor. BBSNews He's against racial profiling. I read it on Roll Call... ;( Dean Becker I am becoming more amazed at how this great nation of 250+million has settled for such dense, pitiful leaders, a shame allan well, pot was more popular in the balloting in any state that had cannabis as an issue than either mainstream party candidate Eric Sterling Hutchinson says that the decision to send DEA agents after Oregon doctors in the doctor assisted suicide matter was the decision of AG Ashcroft. BBSNews Who said he is basing it on SCOTUS med mj. Dean Becker They also said in that same presentation that docs cant use controlled meds for suicide, but can for pain Eric Sterling In 1996, medical marijuana got more votes than Bill Clinton in California, or any other presidential candidate in that state. Dean Becker what we have here, is a failure to communicate..; ) to the elected.. time to change gears! allan In 1996 in Oregon over 100,000 signatures were gathered in 35 days to oppose recriminalization allan it was defeated at the ballot w/ 69% of the vote Eric Sterling The elected need to be continually informed by the people. Consider that 8 states have passed medical marijuana initiatives, but not one of the 16 senators from those states have introduced any legislation to change Federal law to allow state Medical marijuana laws to operate -- even though there is a bill to do so in the House. BBSNews I had three questions for you in line Mr. Sterling but you bring up a fourth, how can the government construe the ruling by the Supremes upholding Congress non-recognition of med-mj (in Oakland) as a point of law that will allow them to go after state passed assisted suicide? Eric Sterling The argument of the government is a stretch. The government is trying to say the Oakland case was a case construing the supremacy clause of the constitution. Actually it was a case about whether there was a medical necessity defense implicit in the Federal controlled substances act -- and they concluded no. Dean Becker why is there not a medical necessity inherent in just being alive? BBSNews That is the way I understand the narrowness of the ruling. Thomas' opinion was a stretch in itself since it rested on the sense of the Congress from back in 1971. Eric Sterling By the way, I wrote to the Alliance of Reform Organizations list serve today to urge that a national protest of the raid on the LA Cannabis Resource Center be mounted. Did anyone see the terrific op-ed in the Press of Atlantic City (NJ) blasting DEA and Justice for the raid, asking how it could be a Federal priority at a time like this? Trippin why can't a bill be put forward to include a med necessity defense in the csa? Eric Sterling The piece will probably be on the mapinc site by now. allan http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v01/n1853/a03.html allan US NJ Priorities, Priorities Terrorism, Not Pot Eric Sterling I don't remember whether the current Barney Frank bill in the house includes a Federal medical marijuana necessity defense. I have the vague sense that there have been bills that propose to do so. Dean Becker Eric, I am for a national protest... hear anything from the ARO yet? Eric Sterling MPP has today put up a webpage http://www.mpp.org/ BBSNews Mr. Sterling, do you think that the spotlight currently on drug money funding terrorism can be used as a talking point to further the cause of recreational drug regulation or will it be a detriment to the movement as a whole? Eric Sterling Frank has introduced two versions of his bill now. I don't think he will introduce a third. But certainly any Member could offer it -- especially a Member from California. It can also be offered as an amendment if the bill gets considered in Committee. BBSNews I don't think leaving smuggling routes open that the military and customs consider to be always surmountable to currently illicit drug dealers is a good idea. Eric Sterling There is, one DEA's home page, a speech about terrorism and drugs by the Administrator, Asa Hutchinson. Several people have told me that local police are arguing that their b.s. drug arrests are actually helping the anti-terrorism effort by cutting demand. Folks like Hutchinson are saying that drug use went down during World War II, and that now with a national crisis and national resolve, the public can be mobilized to fight drugs harder. Dean Becker We cannot allow that. National protest sounds even better Eric. Eric Sterling I think, however, a practical argument can be made that as a temporary anti-terrorism measure, legal heroin maintenance be allowed to stop funding black market sources of heroin. I understand that there was just recently a new study of the Swiss heroin experiment published in the Lancet, that was positive. Dean Becker All positive till it hits the brick wall of American media allan Indeed, it is Prohibition that inflates the value of these drugs. Dean Becker Eric, do you have any specifics on the national protest you can share at this time? Eric Sterling The Washington Post today had a story that drug seizures are up along the US Mexico border. I think it is likely that imported drugs, and drugs in general are likely to get more expensive this fall and winter. I suspect that alone will have the effect of reducing drug use at all levels. I also think that in the new open pocketbook of anti-terrorism, that more money for surveillance, including drug testing -- hair testing, saliva testing, sweat BBSNews I believe that this is a time when that argument can be exposed. In a piece I wrote recently I made clear the success of the Swiss heroin experiment. This is a time when simple waste of resources can be more handily shown than at any other time. Any move to go after med-mj patients or people seeking to die with dignity is a wasted move that could be better used for real security. allan The feds are willing to commit negligent manslaughter (Peter McWilliams) to prove the power of Law over medicine and compassion. Eric Sterling MPP is organizing an internet based faxed letter campaign to members of congress that is now up. go to www.mpp.org/ Trippin since heroin comes from the poppies and they can grow poppies very well in Afghanistan.. then why not use their resource for medical needs of the addicts that are maintained on a government based system and help to stop them from committing all those crimes to get their money....it puts honest money into Afghani farmers pockets it gets the addicts off the street and keeps them from preying on anyone. BBSNews Mr. Sterling, what do you feel is the most important steps that drug policy reform activists can take to counter what may be a lot of lost ground since the events of 9/11? Dean Becker I hope you are wrong about the testing Eric. So far it's making it to Houston ok, pot's up about 50-100 more per Lb. observer Many in mainstream media still push the line that the Swiss drug policy was "Needle Park," and that failed. BBSNews Front Line and ABC did a pretty good job at showing the difference though in my opinion Observer. They made heroin maintenance look decidedly not glamorous. Eric Sterling I think that drug policy reform activists need to be working in their communities in a variety of ways. The message is effective when it organically arises in an appropriate context. If someone talks about the way that local folks are being called up in the reserve and national guard, note that we are wasting on the order of 30,000 federal employees in the ineffective anti-drug effort. allan Only 30,000? Eric Sterling Regarding the Swiss. Needle park is not what we are talking about. Needle park was a mess. It was not a well thought out program. It is not heroin maintenance. Dean Becker Eric, are you currently working on any trials as an expert witness? Anything you can share about that work? BBSNews It would be a lot easier to be a young parent and say to your child, please don't get wrapped up in that while pointing to the clinic rather than getting killed in the crossfire of world drug prohibition. Dean Becker Take the kids to meet the junkies in fact Eric Sterling The Swiss heroin maintenance program involved about 1000 addicts in about 20 cities and towns around the nation who got heroin from a setting, as well as other supports. The results were, among those in the program, lower rates of needle sharing and getting disease, an increase in employment, and a drop in the commission of crime. allan dramatic change, for the positive in all areas Dean Becker We live in the most jerkwater, superstitious country on the planet BBSNews Mr. Sterling, there were 734,000 marijuana arrests in the US last year with nine out of ten of them for possession alone. Do you think the resources used to go after these people could have been better spent in ensuring the average Americans safety? Eric Sterling I was an expert witness only in two cases involving the manner in which Congress passed the crack cocaine - powder cocaine mandatory minimum sentences in 1986. It was probably a mistake of the attorneys to identify me as an expert witness as opposed to simply being a fact witness. I was there, I saw it. Dean Becker I had quit all but pot a year or two before crack hit the scene, thank God Eric Sterling The overwhelming number of marijuana arrests are a complete and tragic waste. They do nothing to advance public safety. BBSNews It could have been spent on what police should do. Provide security. Eric Sterling Do those arrests help drug abusers get treatment? Perhaps some do, but there is no good evidence about that. Does it help get a young person who is drifting and wasting a lot of time using drugs get serious and get their life together? No good data on this. It is all supposition. BBSNews Mr. Sterling, do you largely dismiss the supposed connection between drug trafficking and terrorism or do you think there is a viable link? Eric Sterling One of the theories of order maintenance policing that was advanced by Rudy Giuliani and his first police commissioner, Bratton, was that arresting folks for minor offenses got you the opportunity to search for weapons and do a search to see if they were wanted for trial or violating parole or probation. They claim it did a lot to reduce violent crime in NYC. But there were similar declines in crime in cities that didn't do this, and there are other explanations for the decline in crime in the 90s. Eric Sterling Regarding the link between terrorism and drugs, there are a number of interesting observations. Eric Sterling First, drug production and sales have been used to finance paramilitary activities for decades. Since communists took over China, there have been the Opium warlords in Burma. Eric Sterling When I was in Colombia in 1983 with the U.S. House Narcotics Committee, we heard reports about the FARC being involved in the coca trade there. Eric Sterling The term "narco-terrorism" has been used in south America for two decades. BBSNews And its been used a foreign policy tool for just as long. Witness drug country certification. Eric Sterling Drug smugglers are constantly testing borders, testing the integrity of the guards, looking for those who will take bribes, looking for situations where the scrutiny is superficial. BBSNews The latest missive about certification was couched in much friendlier terms from what I remember though. Trippin I got a question for you...Where is mainstream media at, why are they not reporting the great advancements being made all around the world concerning marijuana? allan Eric- are you familiar with the myco-herbicides like Fusarium Oxysporum and do you think the US will try to use them to eliminate Afghanistan's poppies? Eric Sterling Those are all opportunities for terrorists to exploit for moving weapons and money and personnel. BBSNews What is your take on US Customs and the military simply assuming that the smugglers will figure a way through? Even as they claim that they are checking for terrorist items? Eric Sterling The American news media are not doing a good job reporting events overseas. there are several reasons for that. One is that the "news hole" is small. there is very little coverage of overseas news in general. Drug policy overseas doesn't rate very high. A second reason is that Americans have for a long time held a view of our unique singularity -- the rest of the world doesn't really matter much. We have the best system, the most honest.... Trippin you can not stop smuggling .....never have ...never will.. Eric Sterling Customs and the Military know that smugglers will get some things through because the searches aren't perfect. BBSNews I know that. The smugglers know that and customs and the military know that. How do we get it across to the politicians in the way that Great Britain and David Blunkett has recently done? Eric Sterling Smuggling can't be stopped totally, but that is not the question. If smuggling of drugs is reduced by 50% that is VERY significant. If the interdiction drives up prices significantly, for the first time in 20 years, that would be very significant. Eric Sterling Great Britain is not changing its cannabis laws because of smuggling concerns. Eric Sterling They are facing a very rapidly growing prison population and they are very concerned about the economic and social costs. BBSNews The point I think is that it is agreed that drug smuggling cannot be stopped, even in the face of the most intense scrutiny. The quickest way to close that obvious gaping security hole in my mind is the regulation of drugs with marijuana being immediately regulated much like alcohol. Dean Becker slow smuggling, thus driving up crime, more cut/tainted drugs, more deaths.. real smart of them politicos, more reason to continue the war Eric Sterling The British are concerned about the use of police officer time -- simply write a ticket? Or take a bloke off to jail, and begin writing lots of reports and prepare for hearings in court. BBSNews Blunkett is using the waste of resources that could be used to go after cocaine and heroin instead of cannabis. Which amounts to the same argument. Go after a pot smoker or a terrorist. Eric Sterling From the US governments perspective, they don't see their failure to stop drug smuggling as a reason for regulation. The two ideas don't compute. Eric Sterling Asa Hutchinson, in his early speeches, available at DEA's website, talked about a new crusade. He and Ashcroft want a crusade to protect kids from drugs and the drug lifestyle. It has a missionary quality. BBSNews Which may not play well. I think this blowback form of extremism will have its limits. Eric Sterling Trippin, while you want freedom of choice, the American people don't buy this argument at all, at least when it comes to drugs. If you are a woman and talking about reproductive choice, that's something else. Eric Sterling My prediction is that Walters will get in. I think there is a game of chicken played that is about over. I think some Senators felt that if perhaps they dragged it out, Walters would bow out. But he won't, and Bush won't drop him. But I think he's likely to get the votes in committee. Eric Sterling Friends, we've been chatting for an hour. I still have to leave the office and go home. Eric Sterling I've enjoyed this chat very much. I wish I could have been more positive. observer thank you Eric!! Trippin Thanks Eric allan So, thanks very much. Dean Becker Thank you Eric BBSNews Thanks Eric! Eric Sterling My only conclusion is that drug policy activists need to spend less time online ;o) and more time doing politics such as speaking to groups, writing letters to the editor and to elected officials. Eric Sterling Good night all. - --- MAP posted-by: Richard Lake