Pubdate: Tue, 28 Aug 2001
Source: New York Times Drug Policy Forum
Website: http://forums.nytimes.com/comment/index-national.html
Join: Jeff Jones when he visits the DrugSense Chat Room 
http://www.drugsense.org/chat this Saturday evening, 1 Sep 2001, at 8 p.m. 
Eastern, 5 p.m. Pacific.
Bookmark: http://www.mapinc.org/ocbc.htm (Oakland Cannabis Court Case)
Note: This, and the series of forums, is being archived at MAP as an
exception to our web only source posting policies.
Future: guests in this series include Mark Greer, Mike Gray,
Joseph McNamara, The Hempcar Crew, Peter Christ, Tom O'Connell and George
McMahon. See http://www.cultural-baggage.com/schedule.htm for details. 
Please email Dean Becker if you have any questions about this series: US: TRANSCRIPT: JEFF JONES'S VISIT TO THE NYT DRUG POLICY

Jeff Jones - - Hello This is Jeff Jones Executive Director of the Oakland 
Cannabis Buyers' Cooperative. I'm online to answer questions and discuss 
the medical cannabis issue.

Jeff Jones -- Is there any questions about medical cannabis?

Dean Becker - Hi Jeff! Glad to see you made it okay.

zooneedles. - Welcome Jeff.

Richard Lake - Welcome, Jeff! You are among friends here. You can make 
rather long statements if you wish. You have probably noticed that so many 
- - incorrectly -in the media said that the court said that medical cannabis 
is a no-no rather than that the congresscritters said that in a law years 
ago. Any comments? Richard

Dean Becker Jeff, In those states that do not have provisions for medical 
marijuana in place yet, what advice can you give to those who are 
nonetheless setting up a cannabis buyers club.

zooneedles. Good point Lake.

Jeff Jones - The medical cannabis movement is fighting and up hill battle 
to reverse the Nixon's Administration stance on this plant. They decided to 
bury the 1972 Schaffer Commission report that stated it should be rescheduled.

Jeff Jones - - I would be very careful in setting up a Buyers' Club outside 
of a State that does not already have a law protecting its use, because of 
the current federal problems (DEA).

Dean Becker Jeff, Can you describe how certain strains of cannabis are more 
appropriate for certain medical conditions and other how certain strains 
might be more suited to recreational use?

hairy2 - sorry late Jeff do you believe the Supremes decision helped the 
cause?

Jeff Jones - It seems that only CA is getting attention of Federal 
enforcement but I would still be very careful to stay small and be very 
good at screening into your program only those that meet your standards. 
You may visit my website to see our protocol for what a patients needs to 
be qualified under State law here in CA.

tjaxon - Jeff, while primarily a medical user, I can't help but think that 
even (or especially) medical users would be better off under a full 
legalization model. No red tape, less hassle, more freedom of choice. Do 
you support recreational use (or freedom to use), and do you worry that a 
highly regulated medical system could impede overall legalization?

Jeff Jones - - There has not been a lot of in depth research on different 
strains of cannabis exact effects on patients. Some groups have done 
patient surveys to show the results of using different kinds of cannabis 
affects their conditions different. Which leads me to believe there is 
strong evidence to show this plant is therapeutic and is clearly wrongly 
scheduled.

Jeff Jones -- I agree that most medical user would benefit more from 
complete overhaul of the prohibition on cannabis.

grnchkrflg - Hello Jeff, LJ Carden here, Dr. Jay Cavanaugh's driver and 
AMMA board member. How are you?

Sledhead - How long, Jeff? Is the end of prohibition near?

grnchkrflg I think that all medical users would benefit from an end to 
prohibition And I wish all the media would have reported about your Supreme 
case correctly I still get people being shocked because I still have a 
small 'garden'. They believe that the Supremes stopped 215 in it's tracks.

Jeff Jones - I feel that the US Supreme Court ruling was a benefit to the 
medical cannabis movement. In two ways; first it gave us expose of just how 
out of touch our federal government is, it then sets up a no win situation 
for the federal agents that they must enforce this law or leave it allow. I 
believe bad laws are change and update when they are fully enforced. So 
Bush may do us a favor by not fully understanding the current status of 
support for safe medical access. Which is what the OCBC represents.

grnchkrflg Jeff, did you see today that the DEA burned a bunch of ditchweed 
and called it $80M worth on the street?

Dean Becker Jeff, What's it like to stand before the US Supreme Court? Do 
they treat you reasonably? Do the old guys nap half the time? What was that 
like?

Grnchkrflg -It seemed to me that the Supremes were screaming at the 
congress to give them some room to work with this plant and the sick who 
need it.

grnchkrflg Good question Dean.

Jeff Jones -- I visited Canada recently and they seem on the trail of 
changing their law around cannabis, maybe in the North will see change in 
the next two years. Here it may be a while before those on Capitol Hill 
wake up and see we are not hurting the public interest by help patients get 
what they need to stay alive.

Rifraf11 - Jeff, Do you think its time to shift gears and put on a loud 
strategy to challenge the court on prohibition ala Tom's ideas? It might 
take some of the pressure off medical users, if the Feds are busy fighting 
a stiff battle to toss the whole CSA.

Jeff Jones -- The US Supreme Court is interesting. They treated me like a 
common member of the audience I was not allowed to take notes or sit with 
my Attorneys near the seated Justices. I guess this is common place in this 
court. I found the room to be cold from the recent Gore Vs. Bush ruling.

Grnchkrflg -Jeff did you see today where the DEA burned tons of ditchweed 
and said it was worth $80M?

zooneedles. Jeff, did the bailiff tell you to spit out your gum? Zoo

Jeff Jones -- I can't comment exactly on what may be the best offensive but 
what I can see we already got them running to protect what's (was) law. 
Just look at the Jamaica and Europe as they start to loosen their grip on 
control of cannabis. The Federal Government to me is the screaming kid who 
is fighting to keep his toy from all the others to play with and seems not 
to notice that everyone else can now see just how mean spirited they are.

Louking - This is from a CNN interview. The complete text is at: 
http://www.mapinc.org/norml/v01/n1566/a08.htm 	

NOVAK: Just briefly before we take a break, Mr. Hutchinson, Plan Columbia 
is putting a lot of American money and a lot of American effort into 
Columbia to stop the narco-terrorists, the guerrillas supported by the drug 
dealers. Can you look me in the eye and say that any of this has succeeded 
in stemming the flow of drugs from Columbia? 	

HUTCHINSON: I can look you in the eye and say we need to give this a chance 
to work. 	NOVAK: It isn't working now, though. 	

HUTCHINSON: Well, I think it is working to stop reducing the money that the 
narco-traffickers gain. And I think it's starting to work to build and 
strengthen a very old democracy in South America. 	The intent and 
justification for our initiative should not be to stop the flow of drugs 
coming to our country. I hope that's a side benefit, but that's not the 
justification in my view for the Plan Colombia. We've got to strengthen 
that democracy and their dependence to the narco-traffickers of the drug 
money is what we're trying to reduce, hopefully as a side benefit to 
America here.

I am nuts or did he just say the intent and justification of Plan Columbia 
is not to stop the flow of drugs? Has there been a policy change? Are we 
really in Columbia to strengthen their democracy by spraying the crops of 
peasant farmers?

Jeff Jones - - No but they almost took my nice pen that I was using to take 
notes on what may be the next challenge to the federal prohibition of 
medical cannabis.

Dean Becker Jeff, the current focus of the OCBC is to train 
patients/caregivers in how to grow their own cannabis, so are enough 
blessed with a green thumb to take care of their own needs or is it a major 
problem for some to grow enough to meet their medical requirements?

Jeff Jones - - I feel our involvement in South America has to do with 
resources - not just drugs - that's the cause to allow us to insert our 
army. We import more Oil from the South than we do from the Middle East.

zooneedles. Wow. Was that August 25th with the Hutch talkin that way? 
Thanks for bringing that to our attention. Zoo

Jeff Jones - - Our mission here at the OCBC is to validate patients status 
is consistent with the State Law giving them status to legally possess and 
grow their own medicine. Not all patients can grow or want to grow, but 
there is a growing population of patients in CA producing their own 
medicine. I guess with the recent decision in NV all the patients there are 
out of luck for a safe supply unless they grow it or get it from a safe 
friend.

sledhead - See ya. Gotta run. Thanks Jeff

Aahpat -

S-304IS http://www.user1.netcarrier.com/~aahpat/s304is.htm

Currently in the U.S. Senate of the 107th congress and sponsored by Patrick 
Leahy and Orrin Hatch; To reduce illegal drug use and trafficking and to 
help provide appropriate drug education, prevention, and treatment programs

H.R. 1344 http://www.user1.netcarrier.com/~aahpat/hr1344.htm

To provide for the medical use of marijuana in accordance with the laws of 
the various States Sponsored by Barney Frank.

H.R. 1978 http://www.user1.netcarrier.com/~aahpat/hr1978.htm

Major Drug Trafficking Prosecution Act of 2001 Sponsored by Maxine Waters.

The one thing that the Supremes did say was that the prohibition is in the 
hands of the congress. The bills referenced above provide reform with ample 
opportunity to confront our representatives in the congress and help to 
form and move along these bills that will impact us. What is the leadership 
doing to better focus the effort on the source of the prohibition, the 
United states congress? Easy access for u.s. congress Quick-Email 
http://www.user1.netcarrier.com/~aahpat/qes.htm addresses. Including 
individual Senate Committee Quick-Email links pages. National Voter 
Registration Forms http://www.fec.gov/votregis/vr.htm for both individuals 
and voter registration drives and for most states at the Federal Election 
commission THE CHIEF CONSTABLE'S DRUG REPORT, CLEVELAND, ENGLAND 
http://www.user1.netcarrier.com/~aahpat/ukpol.htm Independent Voters 
http://www.user1.netcarrier.com/~aahpat/iv.htm George Washington's Farewell 
Address http://www.user1.netcarrier.com/~aahpat/gw.htm

Dean Becker - Jeff, the Presidents men are starting to say they will do 
something about the MMJ movement though they seem pretty uncertain about 
what that might be. Have you heard or seen anything of late that might give 
us a clue as to what their future tactics might be?

Jeff Jones - - I know one thing for sure no matter how hard the federals 
try they will not stop patients from using this plant as a medicine. Seems 
governments for hundreds of years have been dealing with this very same 
problem and none of them has solved it. The best report I've seen on 
Cannabis regulations is the late 1800's Indian Hemp Drugs Commission. This 
commission found that if a substance is going to be trade in communities 
that it should be regulated and brought out from the underground, so that 
all would benefit from the trading of such substances not just those that 
are using it. They also said many other things that still very real today

Patient1 - George McMahon - Hi Jeff, what steps can those patients; not 
well enough to grow, take?

Jeff Jones -- I never underestimate what some agents will do with our tax 
dollars. But again the current admin. is left in the same spot that the 
last president was which the more attention they give medical cannabis the 
more they lost ground publicly to have a complete prohibition.

Grnchkrflg - I must go now, later all, Thanks Jeff, LJ Carden

Dean Becker Jeff, we have some doubting Thomas's that visit this site from 
time to time that doubt that MMJ actually works, who doubt that it helps 
sick people. I try to tell them of the miraculous things I have seen it do 
for MS patients. Could you tell us some of the things you have seen it do 
for MMJ patients please?

Rifraf11 - Does anyone know if the ruling against OCBC applies to a friend 
growing a modest amount for a qualified patient?

Jeff Jones - - Patient's that are not well enough to grow on there own or 
don't have space, need to find a very good friend that they can trust to 
very carefully cultivate cannabis for them. That be said (easily)it is 
sometimes very difficult to find that perfect one to do this, my advice is 
be persistent and cautious. You can never be too safe about this process.

zooneedles. My God. Frank and Waters of all people are the only ones with 
some kind of positive proposals. Where the hell are the rest of these 
lawmakers? Zoo

Jeff Jones -- It hard to tell how the Supreme court ruling would effect 
that this friend helping another patient. On face, it seems the federal law 
is clear that all of this is illegal. But it wasn't until Tim Leary 
Challenged the 1937 Marijuana Tax Act in 1969 all the way to the US Supreme 
Court that that law was struck done by the High Court say it over step the 
constitutional rights of Americans.

aahpat - zoo; Frank has been talking about med/mari for years and has been 
marginalized for his efforts. Waters is single-handedly attacking the 
premise of mandatory minimums and she is ignored, in my opinion, by the 
reform movement. The drug war is 100% the United States congress. If we 
want to end the war we have to confront the congress. 100%.

Patient1 - George McMahon - it would seem then most will be out of luck 
till we get more done. Many will never get the chance to try under those 
conditions. Keep teaching it is the difference.

Dean Becker Jeff, for those doubting Thomas's, could you describe some of 
the benefits that MMJ can bring to a patients life?

Jeff Jones - - I find some of the most moving aspects of medical cannabis 
use is it's ability to bring life back into patients who have had a very 
poor quality of life. This is most pronounced in patients with terminal or 
chronic and degenerative conditions. Some patients that get relief that 
wound not other wise from western medicines have conditions like MS and 
Lupus where doctors usually just give them more opiates that don't have 
effect after just a short time.

Rifraf11 - Has there never been a case of a son or daughter, growing for a 
dying parent, who was charged and either acquitted or overturned the 
conviction at the Appellate or Supreme level? Isn't this precedent for at 
least a family medical necessity exemption defense?

Dean Becker At last years Journey For Justice in Texas, I met a couple of 
wheelchair bound patients with degenerative conditions. They were nearly 
mute and very uncoordinated before using MMJ. After use, they could use 
their hands for some tasks and their voices, though not loud were very 
clear. I think the government lies, not to prevent use of MMJ, but rather 
to have ways to steal our rights.

zooneedles. Jeff 	Some patients that get relief that wound not other wise 
from western medicines have conditions like MS and Lupus where doctors 
usually just give them more opiates that don't have effect after just a 
short time. Cannabis and Oxy sound like a good set up to me. Oh, and Kratom 
in the morning. Zoo

Jeff Jones - - I find it difficult and frustrating that we have to still 
debate a finding from US Congress in 1970 to temporally place Cannabis into 
Schedule I until we knew more about it. What happened to the update? Oh 
yeah, I forgot that NIXON was at the helm then, it seems that the same 
could be said for Bush

Dean Becker Jeff, we are lucky enough to have George McMahon with us on the 
forum today. As you probably know, George is one of the 7 remaining Federal 
Medical Marijuana patients, one of the invisible. Was there any mention of 
these folks existence during the time in front of the Supreme Court?

zooneedles. Jeff, would you consider your visit tonight to be "a walk 
through the tulips"? One of our regulars who couldn't make it tonight 
thought that may be the case. Zoo

Jeff Jones - - Yes, George helpfully signed onto an Amicus Brief that you 
can view along with other filings in our legal case at 
www.druglibrary.org/ocbc , this seem to have some impact with the justices 
but they seemed to feel they was a meritable reason that the program 
application process had been closed.

Jeff Jones - - What do you mean "a walk through the tulips"

Jeff Jones - - I can only respond by saying that I have been involved with 
hundreds of press interviews or piece gathering research calls. I feel the 
press has been compassionate to those that are still suffering in our 
communities, of course with a few exceptions like some of the more 
conservative publications like the New Republic.

Patient1 - George McMahon - I thought the amicus brief might have helped 
Jeff. Sorry it did not. We have filed another tho. so maybe this time it 
will .

zooneedles. Gotta run, Jeff. Keep up the battle! Zoo

Jeff Jones - - No, this seems to be sometimes the general response from 
groups that I speak to a real concern for understanding the issue. Once 
they see what this is all about they become very charged that the 
government is preying on those that are least likely to fight back. There 
is usually comment or two that "the government could not have pick a better 
person to pick on then Jeff Jones" It seems I promote the good aspects of 
this debate allowing those that are open minded enough to draw their own 
conclusions about medical cannabis and see there are far more harmful 
substances that are available that should be getting the attention of the 
authorities

Patient1 - George McMahon - most succinctly put Jeff. Another version of 
pick the weak off first. As I see it. they either take toxic meds and 
treatments to death or face arrest and suffering same fate anyway.

Dean Becker Jeff: "It seems I promote the good aspects of this debate" 
..hear, hear to that. I respect what you do. I have great admiration for 
your cause and your methods. Thanks for all you do Jeff. .

Jeff Jones - - George, I hope you keep talking and spreading the message of 
benefits of your legal access to cannabis. It seems that every month I meet 
someone who has ran into you talking at an event in the past. I hope you 
understand just how special you are with the other patients that seem lock 
out of the gates to medical relief

Dean Becker Jeff, when we can get the schedule fixed, we intend to bring 
George on here as a guest, perhaps in late October.

Patient1 - George McMahon - You know my cut Jeff. I could not stop noticing 
my peers plight! Thank you,

Patient1 - George McMahon - When I can stop long enough where a puter is 
at. Right now typing with rt hand in cast.

Jeff Jones -- So, is there any more discussion?

Dean Becker I think you've answered all the questions at hand. I salute you 
for the time and energy you devoted to us tonight. . Jeff Jones -- Did 
something happen to your right hand George?

Patient1 - George McMahon - Broke Hand Jeff.

Jeff Jones - - I'm sorry to hear that George may there be better days ahead 
for you. I will say in ending that it has been a pleasure being on the New 
York Times Forum for Drug Policy and spreading the message that medical 
cannabis does work and that Untied States Patients deserve better from 
their government then the second class citizen treatment that is currently 
being offered (this is still a free country). How can Canada's policies be 
ahead of the USA. This is downright shameful. Keep fighting the good fight.

Jeff Jones, Officer of the City of Oakland for the Oakland Cannabis Buyers' 
Cooperative PO Box 70401 Oakland, CA 94612, (510) 832-5346 Fax (510) 
986-0534 www.rxcbc.org Richard Lake - Thank You so much for being here, Jeff. Looking forward to 
your visit, same time, this SATURDAY evening, to the DrugSense Chat Room at 
http://www.drugsense/org

I think you will also find an interesting group of activists there! Richard

Dean Becker Ladies and Gentlemen, JEFF JONES! A true American patriot if 
ever I saw one. Jeff, thank you so much! 
- ---
MAP posted-by: Richard Lake